How accessible is theatre for disabled people?

Natasha: Hello and welcome back to The Rest Room, the podcast about living well with chronic illness. I’m your host, Natasha Lipman. 

In this episode, we’re talking about accessibility in theatre…or in many instances, the significant lack thereof….are you sensing a theme here across the last few episodes? 

Although I rarely go anymore, I absolutely LOVE going to the theatre, especially to see musicals. It’s a real escape for me, and it almost always leaves me feeling uplifted…and annoyingly for everyone around me, singing the entire soundtrack until the next show gets stuck in my head. 

There are more than a thousand theatres across the UK for us to enjoy… but how many deaf, disabled and neurodivergent people are shut out of those experiences due to a lack of accessibility? 

And I’m not just talking about step-free access for wheelchair users and Changing Places loos – which of course are extremely important! 

But accessibility is much, much broader than that. 

How many theatres offer captioned performances, British sign language and neurodivergent-friendly shows? What about touch tours for blind and partially sighted people, and audio described performances?  

The answer is, it’s hard to quantify. There are plenty of websites which list helpful information about the levels of accessibility at different venues, but there are no real statistics that highlight the actual number of accessible theatres. 

Perhaps it’s because a theatre might claim to be wheelchair accessible, but when you get there, you have to go backwards up a scarily steep ramp, and when you make it to your seat, half the stage is out of view. Or a show might offer British Sign Language but only on one or two performances.

Some fellow theatre lovers have been sharing their experiences of accessibility when it comes to theatre…   

Liam O’Dell: So I think the biggest challenge that I face as a deaf young person accessing theatre is really around the fact that theatres do indeed make themselves accessible, and they do have accessible features on offer, but there’s some administrative or messaging issues. That means that there are some issues along the line where we can’t really access it in the way we would like, or there’s some admin issues that prevent you from accessing things on a more ad hoc basis. For example, one theatre, me and a friend were going to see a production, and we only found out quite close to the performance time you had to give 24 hours notice. So it’s great having these accessible features, but they need to make people aware of them.

Kate J: I’m a wheelchair user, and the biggest barrier to accessing theatre is that there simply aren’t enough wheelchair spaces. For example, if you try to book for a play, you may find that there’s only one wheelchair space, and so, getting a ticket is almost impossible. Or in other older London theatres you’ll get a space that’s partly obstructed, which isn’t really that fair to the wheelchair user who’s paid for that ticket.

Natasha: So, let’s delve a little deeper. My guests today are Shona Louise who’s a Disabled Theatre Photographer, Access Consultant and Activist. 

And Sandra Gayer who’s a blind actor, singer and radio presenter. 

Sandra will be sharing her experience of what it’s like navigating accessibility in her job as a performer – including some great anecdotes from her many years in the industry. 

But first, where did Shona’s love of the theatre come from? 

Shona: Growing up, my mum just kind of played musical theatre all of the time. It was kind of always around. She was always playing Les Mis, especially, and always was telling me about how much she wanted to go and see the show. 

And then just growing up watching the TV movie musicals like Mary Poppins and Chitty Chitty Bang Bang, having that around me, I think as a child just kind of grew my love for it. And then also seeing my mum’s passion and how much she wanted to go and see certain shows when it became possible to do that, immersed me very quickly into it. And the first show I saw was Les Mis, and it was after that really that I was like, “Wow, okay. This is something that I want to do quite a lot.”

Natasha: It was a similar story for Sandra too… 

Sandra: I’ve been a blind person practically since birth. I learned to read braille very, very young, so maybe three and a bit, and music was all around me. It was everywhere around the house, the school run. My family were into singing, so it was everywhere. And I was one of those children that loved listening to and repeating things. And I loved all kinds of music. So Disney, gospel, the Spice Girls. I was very little, that’s my excuse for that slight musical excursion. I mean, Whitney Houston and Maria Callas are my favourite singers in the world.

And then in my teens, I went to train at the Royal College of Music and I studied singing, piano, composition, and braille music. And then a bit later on, I had the chance to perform with the Orpheus Centre, which is a centre for the Performing Arts for disabled people. And all of a sudden disability was the cool thing. So when I was a lot younger, I found myself trying to fit in with sighted people or trying to make excuses for my disability. I’m disabled, but look at all the other things I can do. I could speak three languages. I can do music. I can sing. I could do all these other things. So forget about my disability, forget about the cane in front of me. And then the Orpheus Centre, I felt like disability was something that could be celebrated. That was a turning point socially you could say, but as I say, music was my first love.

Natasha: Okay so we’re clear… We all bloody love the theatre. And for the majority of people a visit to a show is something to be excited about! But unfortunately that’s FAR from the reality for so many people. 

Shona is an expert when it comes to theatre accessibility. She’s been working with venues for years in a bid to make them easier for disabled people to navigate. But she says there are still SO many hurdles… 

Shona: It kind of starts very early on really, the barriers and the things you have to think about. 

Even before you think about booking tickets you have to find out the access information for the theatre you want to go to, and then on top of that if you need an accessible performance, that’s something that you need to research into, find out when that is. Hopefully it’s on a day that you can do. And then you get into booking tickets, which for access tickets for most of the time, you can’t really book them online. So it’s planning around your life to ring up. 

Sometimes I’m on hold to some places for two hours, plus trying to book access tickets. So it’s finding the time in your life to do that. And then also thinking about the physical access at theatres, the kind of seat you need, what you can expect, how much support you might need when you’re there, what staff can do, what your view is going to be like from the accessible seating that you need.

There are so many different things to think about. And then also kind of externally things like public transport to get there, parking, all those sort of little bits and bobs. There’s so much that goes into planning a theatre trip.

You know, I look at my friends who aren’t disabled and see that they just sort of hop online and book their tickets in five minutes and that’s it, they don’t really have to think about much else, but it’s a whole sort of planning and organisational system when you want to go to the theatre when you’re disabled.

Natasha: And for example, as a wheelchair user, there might only be one or two wheelchair spaces in the whole theatre. So you are really limited to when you can go because you have so many people vying for the same seats to go and see a show.

Shona: Absolutely. You know, that’s pretty standard having sort of two wheelchair spaces per theatre, especially in the West End, anymore than that is quite sort of generous, really. So if it’s a popular performance, if it’s an opening or a closing performance, then your chances of getting a seat is quite low. 

You could look online and see that most of the seats are available, but actually when it comes to booking wheelchair spaces it’s sold out completely. 

And it is frustrating when you see that there are so many empty seats that you can’t sit in and you’re being told it’s sold out for those specific seats that you need. It is really frustrating to see that and know that other people have so many options. Whereas, if those two seats get booked up, then that’s that.

Natasha: Shona’s made it her mission to make theatre more accessible for all. She started off writing about her experience of theatre visits on her blog. Then in 2018, The Old Vic got in touch with her and invited her to learn more about the work they’re doing to make the iconic venue more accessible… 

Shona: It was just really exciting to get to talk to a theatre that was so passionate about doing better after spending sort of the whole year, really, having problem after problem. It was really quite refreshing to find someone who actually cared quite deeply about this issue. 

And it was amazing to hear about what they were going to do. I think to me, especially, they did a lot of physical work, ripped out floors, ceilings, but also they removed several rows of seats to give them more space to improve the access. And to me, that speaks a lot about how much they care about it, that they were willing to sacrifice those seats, sacrifice the money they were earning from those seats to improve the situation.

Natasha: Are there other theatres that are taking similar initiatives?

Shona: It’s difficult, really. You come across individuals quite often who are passionate. I’ve had some really great conversations recently, but theatres, especially in London, who have this passion are quite a rarity, really. It’s people here and there who care about it, who are trying to do their best, but in terms of on the inside, access is still very low on the list. 

And there’s not enough disabled people within the industry to push the agenda really, and to say, we’re here, we need to do something. And so theatres, like the Old Vic, are quite a rarity where disability is really thought about in the centre of what they do, and they’re making a lot of big changes to make themselves accessible, I think a lot of big changes that other theatres aren’t willing to make.

Natasha: A few years ago, pre-pandemic, I went to see a show and the theatre literally didn’t have an accessible loo. And so I had to go to the theatre next door to use the loo and someone had to kind of walk with me, take me through a really crowded lobby, just so I could go to the loo. And one of the things that you hear really, really frequently just in terms of access in general is, we cannot do anything about the building. Especially somewhere like London where the buildings are very old, it’s a listed building. 

 

I don’t know if that was what I was told in that one, so I don’t want to say specifically that’s what they said to me, because I don’t remember. But I’ve heard this so many times about buildings in London. 

Once and for all, is this actually true? If there is a listed building, are they allowed to make changes to make it accessible?

Shona: Yeah. So this is the excuse that I hear the most and it’s not just coming from theatres, it’s coming from other theatre fans. 

Often when I talk about access online, people say, oh, but it’s a listed building, it’s old, they can’t make changes, but we know that this is completely untrue. The Old Vic for example, is a grade two listed building and anyone who visited it when they were renovating can see how much changes they made. They ripped out everything inside and started again. 

Another example is the Shaftesbury Theatre in London, another grade two listed building, which is currently renovating to allow wheelchair users and disabled people into the stalls for the first time. And then you have places like the Theatre Royal Drury Lane, which is the oldest working theatre in London and also a grade one listed building, which has made enormous changes to make themselves more accessible.

So it’s really frustrating to me when it’s used as an excuse to not make any changes at all. 

Being a listed building, it does pose more challenges and there are more hurdles to overcome and you have to get permission from a lot more people, but it’s not the impossible task that many people make it out to be. And yeah, it’s really frustrating when that is just the excuse that’s thrown back at you when I can give theatres countless examples of buildings that have managed to renovate, and they’ve done that because they’ve put disabled people at the centre of what they do, and they understand the benefits that come from making themselves more accessible. In 2021, we have to be asking ourselves whether some of these buildings are fit for purpose, and for how much longer are we going to value buildings over the people.

Natasha: It’s amazing to hear about the work Shona is doing with The Old Vic – who I’m delighted to say are sponsoring this episode. 

Did you know that you can become an Access Member of The Old Vic? As an access member, you’ll be able to buy tickets online for all performances, including wheelchair spaces, and pick the best seats in the house to suit your requirements.

For example, front row or aisle seats, the best seats to view captioned units or hear the audio description. The Old Vic will also keep you up to date with all of their access news and more.

And the Old Vic has some upcoming Access Performances you may be interested in!

Tickets are now available for A Christmas Carol, Matthew Warchus’ big hearted smash hit production of Charles Dickens’ immortal classic, joyously adapted for the stage by Jack Thorne.

Described in a five star review by Time Out in 2019 as “magical.” They also said, “If the message of A Christmas Carol is God bless us, everyone, then this is theatre in which inclusivity is centre stage and the perils of denying it are all around you.”

They’re running access performances of A Christmas Carol on the following dates:

An audio described performance on Friday the 10th of December at  7PM, with a touch tour at 5:15 PM. 

They also have a relaxed performance which will be audio described and captioned on Saturday the 11th December at 1PM, as well as a captioned performance on Monday the 13th of December at 7PM. ​

You can also now book for A Number, opening in the New Year, which stars Paapa Essiedu and Lennie James.

There will be an Audio Described performance on Friday the 18th of February and a Captioned performance on Monday the 21st of February.

So, we’ve heard about the challenges many disabled people face when it comes to the theatre… and the important work venues such as The Old Vic are doing to change that. But what’s life like for those with accessibility needs who actually work in the industry? 

Back to Sandra Gayer who’s worked as a performer for her entire career. She told me how she got into it… 

Sandra: I have been singing forever. And when I left sixth form and did all the radio stuff, after that I got into voiceover work and I was doing a lot of audiobook narration. And also I was seeking agency representation for a bit and I secured a voiceover agent. And then I was looking for an agent for performing generally.

I’m with an agency that specialises in disabled artists. So I think their tagline is something like, “Creating mainstream opportunities for disabled artists,” something like that. And I was interested in them because of that, but because they were representing people for all manner of things. They represent Paralympians and public speakers, presenters, modelling and acting. And acting came as a surprise to me. I remember one of the first things I was suggested for, for an acting job, and my reaction was, “Why have I been put up for this? I’m a singer. I’m not an actor. I’m a singer.” But I thought I’d go for it anyway.

And I had the opportunity of working with the BBC, who did a workshop series for disabled actors, then kicked off my acting career, basically. I got some of my first jobs were with the BBC. I’ve been in a number of theatre productions, musicals, operas and things. And I’ve had the opportunity of working with lots of different types of people, namely able-bodied people. The only disabled casts I’ve been in… and even those had some able-bodied people in, were productions at the Orpheus Centre. Everything else I’ve done, I’ve been, as it were, the only one.

Natasha: Sandra told me a bit more about her experience of accessibility when it comes to doing her job… 

Sandra: Varied, I think is fair to say. Some people are very good at taking your needs into account and some people you have to work really hard to make them aware of what you need and ask. 

At times, you do feel like you’re a burden to staff or putting people to trouble if you need a sighted guide for something or if you need more time to go through a particular series of movements so let’s say you are doing a dance rehearsal, I mean calling it dance is stretching it as far as I am concerned because I’m not a dancer. I move around, I do the right thing at the right moment but when it’s being described, I can only learn so much. I learn best by touching someone’s arms and legs and feet and them moving in the way that they’re supposed to. Not just the actual movements but the manner of the movement and then I can copy that. And it does take a certain type of a person to be comfortable I suppose, with being touched to such an extent.

And I had some really good experiences in Italy. I have to say with one conductor in particular and he made everything seamless getting on-stage, offstage, interacting in some tight physical situations where there’s clumps of people in groups and milling around on stage and different formations of that. And he gave me loads of time and space to orientate myself with the venue and all those things. 

There are good experiences in the UK as well but I think the continent has a more relaxed attitude around not just disability but musicians in general. If you need some voice rest, you’ve been rehearsing for four hours, they seem to be okay with you singing things an octave below, or singing things a bit quieter. Whereas over here, you do run the risk of coming across like a diva if you make your needs apparent in a way you’re overcompensating because you haven’t been hurt then you talk a bit too much or too loudly.

Natasha: Do you feel that’s an issue that you come across when you are talking about your access needs as well?

Sandra: I don’t think so. I think it’s easier and especially in recent years awareness has increased about disability, not just what we can’t do, but also our capabilities. 

I think, various Paralympics have had an impact on that maybe but we have the British Paraorchestra we didn’t have that 10 years ago. So, awareness is definitely on the increase of us in the community as opposed to in institutions and no less performers, there are various performers who are high profile who are disabled and have one or even more disabilities. 

So, we have got positive role models as well and people in productions can see that. And there are trends now where there are roles coming up where we are seen for them as a disabled person as opposed to there is a blind character, we will just get somebody to wear dark glasses or put white contact lenses in. There is more effort made now to cast people with a genuine disability.

Natasha: And when it comes to physical accessibility, how have you found that when it comes to getting in and around spaces?

Sandra: A trial. Even with sighted guide, people are more apt to help provide you with a sighted guide if only because there is a direct correlation between that and health and safety hazards. Especially when there is filming going on and there’s wires everywhere. And when something is on stage and being filmed it’s almost twice the challenge because you have got the awkward staircases and everything else as well as a tonne of wires, not just with the mics but the cameras and lighting and all the rest of it, so sighted guide is essential. 

Sometimes the buildings can be a trial because some theatres especially were built a very very long time ago. Not much renovation, staircases can be thin and narrow and so, you can’t be guided next to you. Someone either has to walk in front of you behind you, sometimes the railing isn’t there, or if it’s there it’s rickety or on the wrong side, because I use my cane on a particular side and don’t get me started on that.

Natasha: It’s fascinating to hear Sandra’s take on it from the point of view of a performer. 

I wanted to hear about her experience as an audience member too… 

Sandra: It’s been pretty good as an audience member. I’ve been able to sit fairly close to the performance and really experience it. And I can hear things that I wouldn’t hear at the back, especially in terms of direction, where people are moving across the stage and speaking to each other, or walking, or moving, or doing things. And I can pick up nuances I wouldn’t be able to get. 

When I was little, I was able to go behind the stage and meet cast members and touch costumes and things like that, and I have heard about touch tours of different performances are available for people, especially in ballets and things where you can feel the body shapes of some movements, and there are live audio descriptions available for some performances as well.

And box office staff have been nothing but amazing across the board, I must say. Anything you need and all that sort of thing.

Natasha: I tend to find that the people that specifically work in access at theatres, more often than not, are fantastic.

Sandra: Yeah, that’s their reason to be.

Natasha: Yeah. I always leave the theatre when I have those experiences, I’m like, “Why isn’t everything like this? It would be much nicer if it was just like this.”

Sandra: All the time.

Natasha: Exactly.

Sandra: Happy accessibility, fairyland set up.

Natasha: What does it feel like as an audience member being able to participate in something like a touch tour? What does it mean to people to be able to have these things in place?

Sandra: I haven’t been on a touch tour recently, but I would think that it definitely makes you feel special because able-bodied people don’t need that, it’s being done just for us. 

I suppose somebody else might say they feel a bit odd and a bit of an outsider or misfit because there’s this special thing being done for us. But I feel pretty good about it. It’s like, yes, people are going out of their way to make us feel welcome. We’re not an addendum. We matter.

Natasha: Yeah. And it’s the same thing with the captioned performances and the audio described performances, as you said, it’s great to see those happening more and more now.

Sandra: Yeah. People, I think, are getting used to seeing somebody doing BSL at the side of the stage. 20 years ago, it might have been commented on, but now people don’t bat an eyelid anymore.

Natasha: It’s so interesting to hear Sandra’s thoughts – both from the point of view of a performer and a blind audience member. 

As she pointed out… British Sign Language and audio described performances are more widely available now. But Shona thinks there’s still a lot more to be done to improve accessibility. 

As she wrote in a recent Open Letter to the theatre industry… “Every year disabled people tell themselves that things will get better. But, as every year passes by, there is little change”.

I asked Shona more about her Open Letter and the impact she hopes it will have on the industry… 

Shona: That was just kind of a buildup of problem after problem, spending years coming across buildings and theatres that I couldn’t even get inside, having trouble booking tickets online. And then also just having my messages filled up with other disabled people, sharing their experiences. It broke my heart to have so many messages from people who said they were too scared to go to the theatre And I just thought that’s horrible. Access should not be this massive barrier in 2021, really. 

And so it was just a buildup of all of that. And I thought, all right, okay, enough’s enough. I don’t think I’m the biggest voice in the world, but disability has not had the conversation and the time, the space that it needs within this industry recently to talk about this problem properly. I think we’ve had some amazing conversations over the last few years about diversity and inclusion, but it feels like disability has not had the space that it needs to have those conversations and for people to listen.

And I just wanted to be a conversation starter recently because, over this past year, I found if I can get someone in a room or on Zoom and talk to them, then they really start to understand the situation. It’s very telling of how few disabled people there are in the industry that I can introduce very basic concepts to people, and that is quite shocking to them.

And so yeah, it was just a buildup of years of problems and not seeing anyone doing anything about it, really. So I saw that I had a platform and thought that could be a good place to start this conversation.

Natasha: And how was the response to your letter?

Shona: The response was amazing. Whenever I talk about disability, in particular, I expect a backlash. And when I’ve talked about accessing theatre before, I have received that backlash, but with this letter, it was just overwhelmingly positive. People shared it far and wide. I had support from people inside the industry, and it really felt like I was being listened to. I kept saying sort of friends with family it was like, I feel like I’ve finally broken through, and I’m starting to get somewhere now. 

It was an incredible response, and it did what I wanted to do to see people talking about disability for the first time, considering it. Because the more that people talk about it and get introduced, the more changes there are because, the more people that you have in the room who are saying, okay, who’s missing. And I think that is really key that we all have a responsibility to look around the room and say, who is missing here?

Natasha: How much of a difference do you think the letter will make in the long run?

Shona: I hope that it will make a difference. It is tough to see where it goes from here, really. And I’ve had some amazing conversations recently, and work as an access consultant is increasing slowly, but change is hard, and it’s slow. And I think, especially in the commercial theatre industry that relies so much on money and having the money available to make the right changes but also waiting for people’s attitudes to change and get to the point where they’re open to these changes happening. 

I hope that this will introduce disability to people in the industry more and make people think a bit more, but would also love to see some big changes going on.

Natasha: So, in the words of Shona, big changes are needed. But, honestly? It’s 2021! Why is it that the disabled community is only just starting to be truly heard when it comes to accessibility in theatre?

We’re still so far off from a world where going to the theatre for disabled people is “easy”. 

Shona told me why she thinks it’s taking so long to see real change… 

Shona: It’s really frustrating. And I said to someone recently, actually, I don’t want to be sitting here in 10 years time, having the same conversations. But quite often, it feels like that’s going to be the case. And I think one of the biggest reasons that things have kind of stalled is that there’s just not enough disabled people inside this industry. There’s not enough disabled people being hired. Even when we’re sort of hiring access consultants, they tend to be part of an agency, a company, quite often, not actually disabled.

And so even in those roles where from the outside, it looks like disability is being considered, quite often, it’s not. When you’re missing from a room, you don’t have anyone who can advocate for you. It’s really hard to rely on the rest of the industry to kind of share our voice when you know that it’s not on people’s agenda really.

And so when we are missing from the inside, that’s when problems occur. And quite often, we see that problems are being picked up by customers, when things can’t be changed. Whereas, if we hired more disabled people, hired more access consultants, those problems would never even reach paying customers, they could be sorted internally.

And there were so many little things that I email theatres about, I advise them about. And I just think this is so basic, how is this being missed? I think I remember a couple of years ago, I went to a theatre where the lock on the accessible toilet was just ridiculous. It was completely unusable for a disabled person. And I thought that’s such a small thing, but to me, it’s so obvious. But to everyone else, it was just completely missed.

And I feel like that’s very indicative of where we are in terms of access and disability in the theatre industry right now. We’re still missing the most basic of things. And I think that’s why progress has stalled, because how can we start to tackle the big things, if we’re not even addressing the small easy fixes?

Natasha: That’s a sentiment echoed by Sandra too..

Sandra: I’m not sure if it’s a will across the board, as in every production or every company feels like, “We should make accessibility a top priority.” I think if there were disabled people at the top, then that sort of idea would filter down through to management and staff on the floor.

Natasha: And from a lot of people that I’ve spoken to, it often seems to come down to money.

Sandra: I’m not sure, because it doesn’t take any money for somebody to spend five minutes with you and say, what do you need?

Natasha: Oh no, in terms of making adjustments to buildings.

Sandra: It depends because I think if people could draw a direct line between improving accessibility, means that audience members can feel more comfortable in attending, say more audience members mean more box office sales. So it depends how you look at it.

If you feel like money is, I’m spending this money in case an occasional person needs to use the accessible seating at some point, and I’m spending all this money renovating for a just in case scenario thing, then yes, it is a problem. But if money is linked to, more accessibility equals more profit, I don’t think it’s a problem at all.

Natasha: From your perspective, what needs to be done to make theatre more accessible for performers like you?

Sandra: I’ve probably said it before, but I’ll say it again. Time and space and consideration from the people who have the power to make your needs met. 

And not just the time, but also making it as though that is just part of how it has to be, rather than, I’m having to go out of my way now to give you time to orientate yourself with this venue, or there’s a scene where you need to walk down the street. Are you ready now?

I had this experience once where I said, “Actually, I need to learn this route.” Especially if I was supposed to be walking cane-less. And then the director shouted across the way, “Sandra is not ready yet. We’re not ready because she needs to learn the route.” Yeah, thanks for that.

So we need to feel like accessibility is just a natural thing, and I may a bit wishful there, and it’s already happening in some situations, where I need the script ahead of time. Especially if it’s a piece of music, it takes time to create a braille score from a print one. And sometimes it’s like, “Of course you need the time. Of course you need two weeks. There’s no problem.” So I’d like that kind of thing to change.

It’s hard to change buildings just like that, although there are things that can be done with electronic ramps, and I’m probably talking about wheelchair users here and people who have neurodiversity, it’s harder to put a finger on what they need. It’s easy for somebody to look at me and say, “Oh yeah, that’s what you need.”

Whereas sometimes for different disabilities, communication is even more important. And the person who is communicating with a disabled person needs to be more forthright in making that first move. I’m quite, dare I say it, pushy, so I have no problem in letting people know what I need doing and how I need it done.

Natasha: One reason I don’t go to the theatre as much as I’d like is that I just don’t have the energy to embark on the epic journey into central London, and I find it hard being around a lot of people. 

The shift to online performances during the pandemic was an absolute game changer for me. Suddenly, theatre became newly accessible in a way I’d never experienced before. I could enjoy my love of theatre on my own terms…and when I had the energy to do so. 

It was actually quite emotional the first time, setting that time aside, lying down comfortably on the sofa with my heating pad, and being able to watch a show from the comfort of my own home. 

Shona says online performances made a world of difference to her and so many other disabled people too… 

Shona: To me, it was kind of revolutionary. It cannot be overstated, the impact that it had on disabled people, having online streaming options available. It was just incredible to see my Twitter feed light up with disabled people saying I can finally see this show. There was a show that I wasn’t able to see because of the access, and they put it online during the pandemic, and I was just overjoyed that I could finally see this show and there were just so many options. I was at the point where I could watch a show a week still because there were so many live streaming options, whether it was places uploading recordings that they’d done at the show or new productions, which were specifically done for an online audience, and also it meant that it was much easier to offer things like captioned and audio described performances.

You didn’t have to pick a particular one, you could just watch any performance, which again is revolutionary really, and it was just incredible to watch, and I also watched on the sidelines, the conversation starting off, okay this is great, but what happens once lockdown is over? What happens once things go back to normal, and there was a lot of fear, a lot of worries that this would all kind of be pulled away. 

A lot of people have been given funding specifically to create these online performances, but you could already kind of see, as soon as theatres could open their doors, they all started to drop off, and disabled people really wanted a mix still and that proved that online streaming is possible and live streams of performances is possible and so, why wouldn’t you want to continue that? Why shouldn’t that be an option? 

So, once theatres opened their doors, it was really annoying to see that everything that we predicted had come true and that online streaming, and livestream performances just dropped off completely, and now they’re quite a rarity. 

There are some theatres that have committed to continuing by streaming and also committed to things like remaining socially distanced for some performances which enables more disabled people to go. But, it’s gone back to normal really, and I talk a lot about how the pandemic and lockdown gave us such a unique opportunity to improve access in so many ways. It was the longest time offstage that we’d had in many people’s lifetimes really, and what an opportunity it was to talk about access, and to think about how we can make changes.

Obviously there were financial constraints with being offstage, I wasn’t asking people to completely renovate their buildings, but there were certainly things that we could have been doing in those 18 months to make sure that when we did reopen, we could open our doors to more people, and I think knew at the start of it, that that wasn’t going to be the case, that it was still incredibly disappointing to see that when theatres reopened, nothing had changed really, access had not been improved. We were not doing live streaming anymore, we weren’t considering disabled people’s needs, and even on top of that, I had experiences of one place in particular, who said that they were working on an online booking system, and it was coming soon, and I couldn’t understand why it wasn’t available for the first performance back.

There were many people who were trying to book tickets for this particular show and having a lot of trouble getting through to the access team, and then every tweet we sent to this place was being ignored. You could see that they were replying to other people and ignoring our requests, and when they did reply, it was well, we’re working on an online booking system, but it’s not ready yet, and we’ve been working on it for a while and I just thought, you’ve had 18 months to work on this, but because you don’t see disability and access as a priority, you’ve not got it ready in time. We’re still having to come back and sit on the phone for a couple of hours, having to tweet people just to book tickets.

It just, it feels so ridiculous that that is still what we’re having to do, that nothing really changed. I can think of isolated theatres and people who do commit to making change. But, on the most part, things went back to normal, and if anything, was slightly worse for a while, and once again, it feels everything else is a priority over disabled people’s needs. I feel for as long as I’ve been seeing theatre, places are kind of been saying, we’re working on it, but there are other things we need to do. Money is a problem, listed building, and I said earlier, I don’t want to be having these conversations in 10 years time but, it feels at the pace we’re going, that will be the situation we find ourselves in.

Natasha: One of the things that really gets me about the online performances, is aside from disabled people, even if they didn’t care about disabled people, it gives people all over the world, the ability to see these shows. We’re so lucky where we live, that we have access to the West End. I’ve always had access to the West End, and theatre, and most people just don’t have that. So, they rely on tours or just if they’re lucky enough for a tour to show up in their town. Whereas the global reach that these shows could have by putting them online and just completely making money for the theatres, but also just completely broadening their audience seems such a huge missed opportunity.

Shona: Absolutely, and there were conversations going on alongside the sort of live streaming and online performances where people were also talking about bootleg performances. So, illegally filmed videos of shows and how those two connected really, there were quite sort of decisive conversations about bootlegs are inherently bad. The always awful, we shouldn’t do it. People shouldn’t watch them, but actually alongside that you had disabled people going well actually I can’t even get inside this theatre or, this isn’t accessible to me or, this is a show in a different country, and it was really frustrating to see people have very black and white opinions about these bootleg performances that was popping up on YouTube and things like that, and I saw both sides in-depth for the actors’ being filmed, it was awful, and if they had enough show, they wouldn’t want that recorded, but it also felt the access side of it was not being considered, and that if we made theatres more accessible, it would remove the need for these bootleg performances.

So, we don’t understand why we haven’t continued it really, and a lot of places, say well it’s difficult to manage an in-person production at the same time as a live stream, which I completely understand. But again, it feels like disability and access needs are bottom on the list in terms of priorities.

Natasha: It’s not even just live streams because there’s the live stream, and then there’s the prerecorded thing, right? Because Hamilton and Come From Away were up on Disney+, and Apple, and it wasn’t just sitting with a camera at the front. These things were filmed. So, you could see the actor’s emotions, and you were getting a more polished produced version of what you would see in a bootleg but, also these things were filmed to be filmed, performed to be filmed, and that makes a really big difference especially as you said, if you have a bad seat at the theatre, or you can’t access the theatre, but also if you’re just not able to get to the theatre, because you’re not well-enough or you live too far away, and it meant I got to see Hamilton in a way I hadn’t got to see it when I saw it in person, but it also meant that I got to see Come From Away which I hadn’t had the opportunity to see.

It now takes a lot to make me leave the house and just going into town is not worth it for me. So, I’m completely cut off from theatre unless I see it online. 

I’m very intrigued to see what will happen in the next few years with all of that. Because I know with the Christmas Carol last year, it was recorded online. They did do live performances that were streamed, but this year they’re not, and when I asked the Old Vic about this, they said it’s because staging for a livestream is very different from staging for an in-person performance. So, it’ll be very interesting to see how theatres navigate that going forward.

Shona: Absolutely, and Hamilton and Come From Away are two very important examples for me. Hamilton, I’m not sure where you sat but, the wheelchair spaces back of the stalls and everything on the balcony is cut off, and I remember seeing the show and then talking to friends afterwards and they were did you notice this on the balcony? Did you see this character? I was, no I didn’t because I couldn’t see any of that, and so when it was put on Disney+ and recorded from all of these incredible angles, it was this is amazing. I can see everything that I ever missed, and even more so Come From Away, seeing Come From Away at the Phoenix theatre is probably one of my most disappointing experiences ever.

The restriction from the wheelchair space was near enough half of the stage, and so whilst I loved the show so much, I left it feeling just completely deflated, and so when they filmed it and made this incredible production, I was this is amazing, and I really hope that other theatres and other shows see how well these things are done and take the opportunity.

Natasha: Some of the UK’s biggest theatres have promised to maintain an online theatre programme even as the world is seemingly returning to “normal”.  

For example, the Young Vic theatre – which is the Old Vic’s sister theatre – has committed to streaming all of its main-stage shows. And the Barbican is keeping some shows as purely online experiences.

I really hope we do continue to see online performances. To me, it’s just as important as the work going on behind the scenes to make in-person performances more accessible too. 

Sandra told me her hope for the future of accessible theatre and for disabled performers like her… 

Sandra: The more disabled CEOs and lower that there are, the more accessibility will be near the top as opposed to near the bottom or at the side of items to look out for at a given production. I really do think that that could happen. 

People talk about blind casting, and that can have an effect on the balance of genders and race perhaps, and as a black person, I’d like to think that could have an impact. But accessibility, sometimes it can lie with the writers. I’ve had at least one, if not two, roles where the part I had was not disabled until I got it, and then they rewrote bits of it so that the person was a blind person or there was less climbing and so on. So I think with the directors, CEOs, and writers, I’m one of those people who can’t take a role if that disability isn’t in there.

So with people who are neurodiverse, sometimes they do have that choice where they can play a part who doesn’t have any disabilities, or they can play a part that does have a disability. Whereas with me, I can’t fake, not blind. I’ve heard it where sighted people can masquerade as a blind person, but I can’t do it the other way. So it doesn’t matter sometimes, I mean it does, but it doesn’t matter how good or bad an actor is if there’s no part for you. So I think writers need to be a bit more prolific, writing in some blind people, preferably some blind heroes and heroines, just saying.

Natasha: I just want to pause here and take a moment to consider Sandra’s point about writing more parts for disabled people. Or for disabled characters to be played by disabled actors. We touched on this briefly during our last episode when we spoke to the writer of the short film Chronic (go check it out if you haven’t already). 

It’s long been said that the character of Tiny Tim in ‘A Christmas Carol’ should be played by a disabled actor and that’s something Shona told me the Old Vic has worked hard to get right… 

Shona: Absolutely. You know, I’ve seen a Christmas Carol, I think three times, once was the online production last year. And every time I’ve seen it, Tiny Tim has been played by a disabled actor and I think that it’s just so incredibly important and something that most productions are completely missing. 

And I think people often think, well there’s not enough disabled actors to fill these positions and not enough disabled children who are actors to fill these roles. 

And the Old Vic have kind of proven that really is not the case. They manage to cast several disabled, Tiny Tim’s every single year they do this production and kind of prove how easy it can be. And to other people, it might seem like a small thing, kind of having a disabled person in this role, but to a disabled person themselves, it is a massive thing. And it’s… it kind of hits more. The first time I saw it, watching the story, watching them on stage, I thought this is more powerful because they are disabled. You know this is their experience. 

And so I think that’s really important to consider as well that disabled people have the knowledge, have the experience to play this role in such an emotive way, a way that’s really going to connect with people. I think it feels quite hollow when you have a non-disabled actor in a disabled role.

Natasha It’s been amazing to hear from Shona about all the work that’s going on behind the scenes to make theatre more accessible for all – but it’s clear from speaking to her, we still have a long way to go. 

Shona told me she hopes that we won’t be having this conversation in ten years time… and I really hope she’s right. 

I’ve loved hearing insights from Sandra on what it’s like to be a disabled performer. A huge thanks to her for sharing her experiences with us, and I hope one day I get to see her perform live! 

To learn more about Shona and Sandra’s work – check out the links in the show notes. You can also find more information and a transcript of this episode on my website – NatashaLipman.com. 

And a special thanks to our sponsor, The Old Vic. To learn more about their access performances and access scheme, don’t forget to visit OldVicTheatre.com.

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Aaand that’s all from me. Thanks for joining me in The Rest Room. I’ll see you next year. 

Ta ta for now!